Comments on: The Worthlessness Of Road Racing

By: Michael Daly

Michael Daly — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:22:15 +0000

A Childress chassis or Ray Evernham tuning it don’t make road racing anything more than what it is – the worst racing in the sport. They certainly don’t make Ron Fellows or Boris Said capable of winning at the Winston Cup level. “The number of curves has been reduced…..” It means nothing; curves make a road course worthless because they take away ability to pass. Grand-Am had nothing worth a damn; in the Firecracker they actually had racing.

No more defenses of road racing, Jay Roberts – there is no objective competitive value to racing that’s not about passing but is instead about driving technique.

By: Jay Roberts

Jay Roberts — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 07:21:12 +0000

“Jay Roberts – there is no “special skill” to driving a road course – this is why the specialists like Boris “You Can Call Me Badenov” Said and Ron Fellows have become irrelevant to NASCAR.”

Have Said & Fellows ever had the benefit of a Childress chassis or an Everingham tuning it? Your comment is just as ridiculous as someone saying Dale Sr. would have been “irrelevant” to Le Mans because Porsche or Jaguar never put him in a car over there.

Not to mention, Boris & Ron are old. They’re flirting with retirement. So’s Montoya at this point…that’s why he chose NASCAR in the first place. Good money for has-beens.

“Those road race finishes I cited ARE the exception that proves” the rule, because there is no such thing as “dumbing down” a road course that is by definition competitively dumbed to irrelevance.”

Yet, dumbing down the road courses NASCAR uses *has* happened. The number of curves has been reduced, at great expense to the track owners.

Original Sears Point course:
http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/CA/images/sears-point.gif

NASCAR Sears Point course:
http://tinyurl.com/q8g2bv

Original Watkins Glen course:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Watkins_Glen_International_Circuit_Map.png

NASCAR Watkins Glen course:
http://www.fanhub.com/assets/images/uploads/venues/maps/WatkinsGlen_seating.gif

“Those who care about the automobile want COMPETITION – competition is lead changes, passing, sidedrafting, nose-to-nose combat. It is not about just driving a car, it is about RACING other cars.”

Then they should watch a little Grand-Am. They had a much better finish this weekend than the crash-fest that was the end of the NASCAR race formerly known as the Firecracker 400.

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=335204

Of course, if you actually like crashes, your mileage may vary.

By: Michael Daly

Michael Daly — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:54:59 +0000

Tom Heath – Skill and technique are not synonyms. Technique is what it is, a technical exercise, not an attempt to make something happen. Skill is about making things happen. Skill and technique are not related. Thus my argument works and yours is the one that fails.

There is nothing exciting about wheel-hopping over curbing on a road course because it is NOT about passing other cars. It’s all technique, not skill. That it’s about keeping it out of the sticks means it isn’t racing.

Setup means everything on a road course – there is no such thing as a driver using his skill to overcome a bad setup. It takes the car, not special skill, to win on a road course. It takes skill to outfight other cars – it is on ovals that real racing is found, not on road courses – NEVER on road courses.

By: Michael Daly

Michael Daly — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:49:24 +0000

jason – F1 may be “the biggest sport in the world,” but that’s just hype. F1 has been irrelevant to racing seemingly forever – it has no competitive value, it is so expensive that even the sanctioning body realizes the need for spending caps – and it is to the eternal discredit of teams that they argued “we know better” when in fact they don’t – and it has little depth and no upside to see. It’s a crushing bore.
And your shots about circle track racing reflect your own bigotries. That SCCA trains corner workers etc. means nothing. It takes more skill to RACE other cars than it does to keep it out of the sticks on a road course. Pushrod motors and carbs work, and are more robust than “now” technology.

Jay Roberts – there is no “special skill” to driving a road course – this is why the specialists like Boris “You Can Call Me Badenov” Said and Ron Fellows have become irrelevant to NASCAR. Those road race finishes I cited ARE the exception that proves the rule, because there is no such thing as “dumbing down” a road course that is by definition competitively dumbed to irrelevance.
Those who care about the automobile want COMPETITION – competition is lead changes, passing, sidedrafting, nose-to-nose combat. It is not about just driving a car, it is about RACING other cars.

By: jason

jason — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:55:40 +0000

Ah yes, the great rules of Nascar and the true hype of that market……
Where to start. If you really want to now abou the sports of the world, F1 is the biggest sport in the world, The super rigs in eupore draw more fans then even F1 and we are talking about racing semi’s and a road way. WRC is also really huge around the world and really insane with fans. The baja 1000 in mexico is pretty much a holyday south of the border and draws huge numbers of people from everywhere to watch and race. Stateside racing that is getting popular is the SCCA speed challange, where teams run cars that are from the streets and turn left….and right.
How about this for some thought, with out the SCCA you would not have the crew needed to run your races for Nascrap as it where. They are the leading trainer for staff to put on the behind the scenes for just about any race in the world. Flag people, couner workers, safety crew, tech, timing and much more comes from road racing training for a very long time.
Here is one more thought, how about the NHRA and drag racing?
Besides, what about the tech level of Nascar? pushrod motors, and carbs? when everyone else is using tech that is now and not last centry.
How about this one, in circle track racing you dont even need to get training at all, just get a car and go bang into others on the track at the local dirt level. In any other racing series you must take care and attnd school and driver training so you dont become a hazard to everyone around you. Other wise you are just waiting to kill or hurt someone with no training at all.
That is just my 2 cents worth on this and I did not even go into other ways why Nascar is boring.

By: Jay Roberts

Jay Roberts — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 06:28:56 +0000

Those of us in the road racing community who actually appreciate what NASCAR has done as a sanctioning body will probably feel insulted by this article. We respect the fact that NASCAR has a stable rules package (which also allows more than two or three factory-funded teams to run up front), that it has made its drivers & teams more accessible to the fans, and that it has brought motor racing in the US to a standard of professionalism equal to that of any other form of racing anywhere else in the world.

It is interesting to read an opinion such as yours in the modern era, when NASCAR is wondering how to bring their wonderful blend of man & machine to markets outside of the US. The reality of the situation is that in the rest of the Western world (i.e., countries with racing fans who have money to spend on the sponsors’ products), it is much more difficult for the average person to obtain a license to drive on the street. They actually understand the “skill” required to drive on a road course, since they must demonstrate (at the least) a basic ability to use those skills in order to drive on public roads in the first place.

We in the road racing community in the US have attempted to meet NASCAR half way in this process. The owners of the Sears Point and Watkins Glen circuits have spent Cubic Dollars paving simplified pathways through their original layouts so that drivers with lesser ability in NASCAR might survive the event without achieving the DNF they so well deserve. We postpone your races when it rains. We do not schedule your races on road courses at night.

You claim the great NASCAR finishes on road courses (and IMO, most of the ones you mentioned were in the days before the road courses were “dumbed down” for continued NASCAR participation) are the exceptions that prove the rule. I disagree. To some of us, those races were the ones that actually showed the potential of what NASCAR could eventually become.

If “passing” is the only thing you care about, I suggest you go watch the horse or dog races instead. On the other hand, if you care about the automobile, and about those of us who race them, you should reconsider your opinion on road racing.

By: Tom Heath

Tom Heath — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:39:59 +0000

Sorry you don’t like road racing Michael. I realize that it’s a pain to have to use both hands (and sometimes a foot!) to count all the turns on your favorite racetrack, but your argument is pretty weak, and you contradict yourself several times. “Skill” and “Technique” are synonyms—that means that the words can be interchanged, look it up in your favorite thesaurus. Your assertion that road races are a display of technique and not skill completely fails.
My favorite part of the entire NASCAR season is the qualifying sessions at the two road course events. That’s one of the few times NASCAR drivers get the chance to really drive as hard as they can to the peak of their ability. I think seeing the drivers hop over the curbing in a corner and get squirrelly under braking makes for a very exciting race. A small mistake such as turning in a bit late at a track like Daytona will cost you tenths of a second, a similar mistake at a track like Infineon or the Glen could put the driver right off the track.
Also, setup is less a factor on a road course than it is on a superspeedway. If a driver has an ideal setup and doesn’t run into trouble, their chances of victory on sunday are awfully good at an oval. The same driver with a perfectly set up car won’t stand a chance on a road course unless he’s got the skill (or technique, if you’d like to call it that…) to consistently pound out fast laps without making a mistake.